Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

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PLS7393
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Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:10 am

1) Why do so many agencies make the lot line adjustment so difficult? It is so simple if you understand it.

2) Most agencies allow the planning department to take charge, and sometimes don't even have a surveyor review new descriptions.

3) Many agencies do not include the signature of a licensed land surveyor, as mandated in Sect. 8761(d) of the PLS Act.

4) Most agencies do not have a clean simple document on how to finalize the lot line adjustment, that the residents can understand and give to a title company to process and optimally record a "NEW GRANT DEED" reflecting the lot line adjustment.

I must say I am lucky to have worked at the City of Hayward (9.5 years), and the past City Surveyor, Harold Davis had it under control, for the residents.

Is it a power trip between Planning, Engineering, and Surveyors? I'm spending way too many hours in attempt to educate others on issues they should already know, including title companies. Unfortunately they do not want to listen to a private surveyor, and I feel for the residents paying these agencies extortion amounts of money for a lot line adjustment. When all is said and done the lot line adjustment isn't finalized and legal.

I'm sure this is a state wide issue, but what is CLSA doing to assist and clean up? Is this a Board issue which needs to be taken on and educate the agencies, since most documents approved do not satisfy the above referenced section 8761(d).

Now back to your regularly scheduled Covid programming!
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
PLS 7393

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hellsangle
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby hellsangle » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:34 pm

I hear ya, Keith!

In some jurisdictions LLAs have the feel of an underground regulation. Somebody had a bright idea and said this is the way we're going to do it from now on. I don't understand how a department could present such a convoluted ordinance for LLAs . . . . turn it over for public hearings . . . Board of Supervisors/City Council approval! What is the benefit? $$$$s for government?

Previously, the intent of the LLA process was to make it simple to correct a situation!

Some are granting exclusive easements! It fixes things but not as nicely as a "simple" LLA. (I suspect someone from "planning" got a wild hair up their arses from something they learned in college or their council of planning depts. Not an ounce of common sense.)

It is because the planning departments are culling their records and don't have a "record" of approval? Seems common sense would dictate . . . the deed was recorded . . . the parcel taxed . . . no abatement notice from planning stating an illegal LLA . . . then it's a done! What do they need - the Pope to come by and bless it?!

Who's driving this craziness? Title companies? Planning agencies? Who?!

Time to take my blood pressure meds. LOL

Have a good weekend all and let's pray there is some relief for the firefighters and those living in areas of these conflagrations.

Phil - Sonoma (And still want Surveyor to Recorder! "Lord hear our prayers".)

(Phil! it was shot down! Give up ol' geezer.)

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mpallamary
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby mpallamary » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:00 pm

Most municipalities do not understand the difference between a LLA and a Boundary Agreement.
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Edward M Reading » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:04 pm

hellsangle wrote:Phil - Sonoma (And still want Surveyor to Recorder! "Lord hear our prayers".)

(Phil! it was shot down! Give up ol' geezer.)


Phil,
It was shot down by a representative sample of your fellow surveyors.(I don't think that it was even close) Other surveyors don't want it and they have legitimate reasons. The horse is dead.
Ed
Edward M. Reading, PLS (ID, WY, CA)
San Luis Obispo

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PLS7393
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:42 am

Phil you hit the head of the nail exactly how I feel, and we know there is little to no common sense in most planning departments.
Give them the power, and they think they can do whatever they want at their taxpayers expense.
Furthermore you can't talk common sense to any of these people, and their response is always "if you want this recorded, do it this way".
Don't get me wrong, some cities understand the concept and it is a pleasure working with them, but they are far and few apart.

A prime example of the craziness is to have a separate Certificate of Compliance - Lot Line Adjustment for each lot, rather than recording one document approving both new lots. Or having the signature page for the Owners, City Planner, and City Surveyor on page 6 of 7, on a signature sheet associated with the plat map, formatted like a parcel map, hey but it's pretty!
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:49 am

Good stuff right there Michael Pallamary!!!
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
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Warren Smith
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Warren Smith » Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:31 pm

It's very workable with the option to file an unconditioned parcel map, showing monuments at the new corners, without having to file a record of survey. Owners sign the consent statement, and new parcels are of record.
The key is to have an enabling ordinance.
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
County Surveyor
Tuolumne County

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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:22 am

Warren,
I don't understand why your bringing in the concept of setting monuments, as that was never an issue in the original post.
Left turn Clyde!
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
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Warren Smith
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Warren Smith » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:40 am

Keith,
Setting monuments on a parcel map which all owners have signed their consent is a bonus. It also imparts constructive notice.

[wasn't it 'right turn, Clyde'?]
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
County Surveyor
Tuolumne County

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PLS7393
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Warren Smith wrote:Keith, [wasn't it 'right turn, Clyde'?]

Yes it was, but I'm South oriented today, lol.

v

v

v

Now turn right!
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
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Warren Smith
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Warren Smith » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:53 pm

Thanks for your sponsorship of the virtual 3 state conference!
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
County Surveyor
Tuolumne County

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David Kendall
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby David Kendall » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:25 pm

Warren Smith wrote:It's very workable with the option to file an unconditioned parcel map, showing monuments at the new corners, without having to file a record of survey. Owners sign the consent statement, and new parcels are of record.
The key is to have an enabling ordinance.


I would love to see this practice catch on. As long as it doesn't cost $5000 in review fees like some other parcel maps.
What does the agency charge for an unconditioned parcel map?

As an aside, though I have done it in the past, I am often frustrated by the inherited LLA without prior establishment of the new lines. I suppose that it is better to have the option but going forward I plan to encourage the clients to set the corners and file a Record of Survey when the LLA is performed. I feel like some surveyors must be encouraging clients not to establish even when it is obviously in their best interest.

Thank you for the Clint Eastwood quotes, that made me smile!

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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby PLS7393 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:54 pm

David Kendall wrote:As an aside, though I have done it in the past, I am often frustrated by the inherited LLA without prior establishment of the new lines. I suppose that it is better to have the option but going forward I plan to encourage the clients to set the corners and file a Record of Survey when the LLA is performed. I feel like some surveyors must be encouraging clients not to establish even when it is obviously in their best interest.


David,
I would blame the government agencies for us surveyors to encourage the clients to not set the property corners. When most agencies charge $4,000 to $6,000 initial deposit for checking a simple LLA, is simple extortion. Yes setting the corners is beneficial, but not required. With the government fees, we gain more PR points for the surveying profession by saving our clients the extra $4500 - $5000 they would have to pay for setting and filing a RS map.
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
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Warren Smith
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Warren Smith » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:30 am

The two step process is under $1000, including recording fees.
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
County Surveyor
Tuolumne County

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hellsangle
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby hellsangle » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 am

Warren - your County is SAINTLY!!!!!
That is the way is should be.
But let me share a recorded example (attached) in Marin County. On top of the attached silliness (created to perform the Assessor's Mapping Department's job!). . . a Record of Survey was also recorded. This silly document alone added thousands of dollars to create . . . when the Record of Survey & deeds would suffice!

Keith,
I hear you . . . but if we don't set points today it might cost the client, ten times as much, down the road . . . when our control is gone and/or monuments destroyed by utilities/infrastructure. Besides - points in the ground are paramount (see 2077 CCP) . . . Besides - the parties see, bless and begin making improvements to the surveyor's points in the ground.

The LLA should be changed to omit the "ordinance" portion of the SMA regarding LLAs.

Take care, all . . .

Crazy Phil - Sonoma
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mpallamary
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby mpallamary » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:09 am

Here in San Diego, we have the parcel map alternative. it works great!

https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/ ... dib578.pdf

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Anthony Maffia
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby Anthony Maffia » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 am

Was there a change in LLA state law at the beginning of this year? Thanks
- Anthony Maffia, LSIT

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mpallamary
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby mpallamary » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:39 am

Not to my knowledge.

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David Kendall
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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby David Kendall » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 am

Trying to make a pitch to a small town for a LLA PM. They probably have no idea what I am talking about so I need to sell it....

The San Diego informational document above is very helpful. In addition to these statements, I will suggest that the city would benefit from the map application and review fees that would normally go to the County for RS review.

I would appreciate any other suggestions that I could use to make the LLA Parcel Map seem like a good deal for the small town.

Warren is there someone in CLSA that could possibly help me with agency outreach on this?

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Re: Lot Line Adjustments aren't difficult

Postby mpallamary » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:03 am

I hope you can participate in the upcoming CLSA seminar on September 25 at noon.

I was the primary author of the parcel map option, adopted by the city, for many, many reasons.


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