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Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:30 pm
by marchenko
Rich, to be clear, you are including your stamp or seal with your signature and they are still wanting an acknowledgment?
George Marchenko

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:42 pm
by Scott
George,
I am Scott, a colleague of Rich's.
I have revived Rich's thread here because I am up against the same issue he had raised.
I am looking for direct, plain language proof that if a signature is accompanied by a Professional Seal, then no acknowledgment is necessary.

For example, as Warren said, all the signatures (except the owners') on Cert. sheets of FMs and PMs.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:59 pm
by marchenko
I do not know of a code that states that.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:31 am
by mpallamary

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:17 am
by marchenko
Here's the best I could find:

Gov Code 27287 states acknowledged by the person(s) executing it is required. It does not state that all signatures need to be acknowledged.

Code reads:

27287.
Unless it belongs to the class provided for in either Sections 27282 to 27286, inclusive, or Section 1202 or 1203, of the Civil Code, or is a fictitious mortgage or deed of trust as provided in Section 2952 or 2963 of the Civil Code, or is a fictitious oil and gas lease as provided in Section 1219 of the Civil Code, or is a claim of lien under Section 8416 of the Civil Code or a notice of completion under Section 8182 or 9204 of the Civil Code, before an instrument can be recorded its execution shall be acknowledged by the person executing it, or if executed by a corporation, by its president or secretary or other person executing it on behalf of the corporation, or, except for any power of attorney, quitclaim deed, grant deed, mortgage, deed of trust, security agreement, or other document affecting real property, proved by subscribing witness or as provided in Sections 1198 and 1199 of the Civil Code, and the acknowledgment or proof certified as prescribed by law.

27201
(c) (1) Each instrument, paper, or notice that is rerecorded shall be executed and acknowledged or verified as a new document, in addition to any previous execution and acknowledgment or verification, unless any of the following apply:
(A) The instrument, paper, or notice is otherwise exempted by Section 27287 or any other law.


George Marchenko

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:31 am
by Scott
Great stuff, thanks George.
"its execution shall be acknowledged by the person executing it"

Our recorder does not require owners' signatures on LLA Certificates.
Do other recorders require owners' signatures on LLA Certificates?
That 96 (THE CHECKLIST) of the County Recorders' Association Document Reference and Indexing Manual does not mention owners' signatures.

Does that mean the person executing the LLA would be the local agency official and so their signature would need to be acknowledged whether or not there is a seal with it?

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:50 am
by Warren Smith
Scott,

In San Joaquin County, the approval of a lot line adjustment is signed (pursuant to Ordinance) by the Community Development Director. That signature is, in fact, notarized. Subsequent Grant Deeds conveying the resultant parcels are signed and notarized by the respective owners.

There are a multitude of processes of approval and conveyance of adjusted lots - all pursuant to local ordinances. Here in Tuolumne County, there is an option (exercised nearly universally) to file an unconditioned parcel map. This monuments the new parcel corners without having to file a record of survey.

As an exemption to the requirement to file a tentative and parcel map, lot line adjustment approvals are subject to the local agency's regulations. Consummation of the approval takes many forms statewide. A number of agencies will issue a Certificate of Compliance. Ultimately, what is described in the approval becomes the new description for transfer purposes.

Another twist is lag time between approval and the recording of transfer deeds. The County Assessor will often show multiple assessor parcels until the process is completed. Very interesting come tax time.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:22 pm
by marchenko
In San Luis Obispo County the LLA is signed and notarized by the Director of Planning ( by deputy) and the Owners. My legal description signature and seal has no notary.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:09 pm
by Edward M Reading
marchenko wrote:In San Luis Obispo County the LLA is signed and notarized by the Director of Planning ( by deputy) and the Owners. My legal description signature and seal has no notary.


George, it is also approved and signed by the CS or his designee.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:58 pm
by PLS9196
A ton of great information in the previous posts, going back to the original question. I would think one would need to ask, what is the purpose of notarization. "The exact purpose of a notary is to attest to both the authenticity of a document as well as the identity of the parties signing it." The fact that you have been issued a license by a state board should/would satisfy that requirement, but I've yet to find a statute that spells the topic out. Good luck.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:48 am
by Jim Frame
Ask the County Recorder why they don't require the notary's signature to be notarized. That might turn on the light bulb for them.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:54 pm
by Warren Smith
B & P section 8752:

An unrevoked, unsuspended and unexpired license, or renewal certificate, issued by the board is presumptive evidence in all courts and places that the person named is legally licensed under this chapter.

FWIW

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:37 am
by hellsangle
Ingenious, Mr. Frame! Ingenious . . .

Have a good week, all.

Crazy Phil - Sonoma

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:53 am
by A.Westerlund
If you could get the checklist to say that all legal descriptions have to have a surveyor's stamp and signature, that would be winning.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:55 am
by Scott
Yay, finally got the answer I have been looking for!

From: Lead Legal Clerk, Clerk-Recorder Office
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020, 8:41 AM
Subject: Question Presented to Clerk-Recorder

Question: Are Notary Acknowledgements required for Licensed Surveyors and Registered Civil Engineers signing and stamping as approval agency representative for Lot Line Adjustments?

Answer: Not by the Clerk Recorders office, not sure what is required by Planning and Community Development.

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:15 am
by Scott
We went another round again with the recorder, but now the County Counsel has reviewed and agrees Lot Line Adjustments can be recorded without the Agency Official being acknowledged (if a CE or LS with a stamp), so all good.

Not sure if I want to celebrate too hard until a few more have been recorded…

Re: Challenges with the County Recorder

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:45 am
by mpallamary
Excellent!