AB5 and CLSA

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mpallamary
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:29 pm

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:44 pm

I return to my original question that drives Tom crazy but why can't we call ourselves engineers when the board does and it is in our title act?
Last edited by mpallamary on Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby E_Page » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:53 pm

Brad L,

My understanding is that even with a business license, if I were a sole proprietor working as a consultant for one client at a time (say, Company A from February to May, Company B from June to September, and Company C from October to December), I and my clients might run afoul of AB 5.


Warren,

The perspective of the IRS, again as I understand it, is now an entirely separate matter from the determination of whether one is a consultant/contractor or an employee under California law. Being issued a 1099 rather than a W-2 might be evidence of violation of AB 5 as opposed to evidence of whether or not one is an independent consultant/contractor.
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby E_Page » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:15 pm

TTaylor wrote:*Big sigh*

As i communicated earlier on this thread, we are not engineers.

Also, engineers are not Land surveyors.

I will say from my experiences that Land surveyors are much better equipped to do engineering work than engineers are equipped to do pls work.

With out a doubt.


As part of my BS Degree in Surveying, I took classes in soils, building materials, statics, road design, hydraulics, hydrology, as well as the same math & science required of most BS CE degrees.

During my career, I've had many occasions to put much of that training to use. I've also had many occasions to work with several EIT's, techs with primarily engineering design background, and a few PEs on field survey crews. Based on my observations during that experience, it was far easier for a surveyor (LS or any unlicensed survey tech familiar with survey computations) to make the transition to design work than for an engineer or engineering tech of similar training and experience level to make an effective transition to field work. Same goes for transitioning to the proper mindset for boundary analysis.

So Tom, I've voiced that same observation a few times. The problem is that most engineers, just as with adjusting their perspective to be effective at surveying tasks, are incapable of accepting the truth of this statement and unwilling to even consider the question.


Mr. Smith wrote:AB5
On another note:
Not to cause discontent but,
I hereby state that Klamath Falls OIT grads (other than a few 2 sigma outliers) are much more skilled and practiced than Fresno or Berkeley grads at driving on icy roads.


Owls on ice skates!
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby TTaylor » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:24 am

Mr. Evan Page:

During my studies at Berkeley and before I took all of the classes an engineer was required to take at the lower division level. Sometime in the early 2000's I rode my bike out to the testing site and took the EIT on a flyer. (I applied earlier and forgot until the day before - no studying) and passed the first time.

I thought about taking the PE exams but decided I was pretty long in the tooth and was already a Senior. The pay for an Engineer is the same as for a Land Surveyor.

I respect that Engineers' education is wider than mine on the engineering front. I wish they gave us the same respect. Unfortunately, they have no training or experience with boundaries. The engineers I worked with were good at following step by step check lists by route. Not too sophisticated.

Anyway, back to the question, I do not believe that the LSAact supports us calling ourselves some kind of engineer even though arguably we are. It's an interesting argument to circumvent not being one of the excluded.

Personally, I think working towards a revision or repeal of AB5 is worth the effort. I do NOT think CLSA wasn't tracking the bill and effectively communicating within the organization.

Take care, Evan, and have a great day.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby Brad L » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:51 pm

Evan, that may be correct if they have exclusive control over when and where you work. In your case you'd run foul of the first step:

"The “business service provider” (i.e., contractor) must be free from the control and direction of the “contracting business entity” in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact.
What this means for businesses: Control is measured both by the terms of the agreement with a contractor and by the actual practice between the contracting business and the contractor. This means that, even where the contract contains no terms imposing control, if the contracting business actually exercises significant control, the worker will be viewed as an employee. Likewise, even if the contracting business imposes no control in practice, where the contract contains terms imposing significant control, the worker will be viewed as an employee."

And hiring your local handyman would run you foul of the last step:

The “business-to-business” exemption does not apply to an individual worker (as opposed to a business entity) who performs labor or services for a contracting business.
What this means for businesses: Contracting businesses seeking to satisfy the exemption should contract only with a contractor formally registered as a business entity (e.g., as a corporation, LLC, partnership, or sole proprietorship) with the California Secretary of State or other equivalent state business registry. Contracts with individual persons will not satisfy the “business-to-business” exemption.

However, if you have a business license (and obviously the LS), and can prove you intend to work for more than one client, then AB5 has little effect of the survey community. I'm sure there are some surveyor's who only work for a Prime or two the whole year, but I believe that is the exception, not the rule.

Good article for understanding the business to business aspect. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 04928814e4
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:19 am

Here's a local TV interview with a friend of mine, Tony Krvaric.

It sure would be helpful if CLSA took a position on this bill.


https://www.kusi.com/republican-party-o ... OoQCr7w1zA

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:45 am

I sure wish CLSA would take a stand on behalf of the profession. It's silence is deafening. Everyone else is standing up while the surveyors are laying down. I don't get it.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... -bill-ab-5

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby ekparian » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:57 am

I too would like CLSA to take a stance.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:59 am

Thanks for weighing in. I have been following it closely and we are the only significant profession who has not weighed in.

:(

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby E_Page » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:30 pm

Mike,

Magee, on page 1 of this thread, Rob McMillian, on Page 2, and Dave Woolloey of Page 3 of this thread have all indicated that AB 5 was addressed by CLSA's Executive Board, the Board of Directors, and Leg Comm, albeit unsuccessfully.

Saying that CLSA has not weighed in repeatedly does not make it true.

Beyond expressing opposition to the legislature as it was being considered and expressing concern to legislators via its legislative advocate, what would you suggest CLSA do? Bear in mind that CLSA has limited resources as compared to many of the larger organizations which may be taking more public action (i.e. lawsiuts) and that an organized media campaign and certainly a lawsuit are both beyond our organization's ability to engage in.
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:49 pm

Well, for starters, CLSA should start a phone train to start calling legislators. Anyone near Sacramento should visit their representatives. Better yet, a small delegation of surveyors (like we used to do).

We should identify key committee members. The Executive Board should send a letter to key officials and the members should be encouraged to write letters, and how CLSA gets it voice heard (like we used to do).

I am sure the members can afford a phone call and the time to write a letter. We could easily develop a simple form letter that comes in from all over the state. To be sure, there are a hundred things that can be done with a campaign that does't take any association resources.

It is all very basic and easy to do. I remember lobbying for CLSA in Sacramento. When we did, we were successful.

All that is requires is a campaign and work.

Here are some strategies:

Schedule an appointment in advance by calling your member of the assembly's scheduler. Be firm in your request to see the member. If you have trouble getting time to see the member, consider talking to the chief of staff about your desire for a meeting, or plan to meet with the staff person who works on survey issues. (More often than not your meeting will end up being with staff not the member).

Prepare and send beforehand a memorandum or agenda that outlines what you plan to discuss at the meeting and who will be attending. Staff will appreciate the opportunity to familiarize themselves with the issues and brief their boss. Include bill numbers when referencing particular legislation.
Gather any background material that may be useful, including some memento of a preservation project—a poster, artifact, or the like.

Reconfirm a week or so before the meeting.

If several people will be attending the meeting, coordinate your remarks in advance, including deciding who will take the lead and how.

Bring copies of your memorandum/agenda and a list of meeting participants, including contact information for each, to hand out at the start of the meeting. Present any memento you have brought. Note: Make sure that the cost of this memento is beneath the maximum allowable amount.
Acknowledge the member’s support for preservation.

Get to the point of the meeting quickly, be succinct, and keep the meeting as brief as possible.

Discuss the bill by using its number and title. If you are not lobbying on a particular bill, be specific about what you want the member to do for you.

Use specific examples from your member’s state or district to support your point.

Bring materials to illustrate your point. It is always a good idea to leave some concrete reminder of your visit for the staff or member to refer to later. A one-page briefing sheet is particularly effective. As preservationists we are lucky to have some great images of our work—before and after photos can be powerful tools.

Be prepared to answer questions on preservation, not the legislative process. Remember, you are the preservation expert; you know more about preservation than they do.

Always look for opportunities to be of service to the member. For example, offer to send follow-up information regarding issues that came up during the meeting.

Suggest a follow-up, i.e., a meeting in the district or with the district staff, or offer to keep the member regularly updated on what you have discussed. Ask the member who your point of contact should be on the matter.

AFTER

Send a thank-you note to both the member and the staff along with any additional materials you have offered to provide. Use the note to briefly restate and reinforce your arguments.

Publicize the visit. Include a story in your organization’s newsletter. Send photos and press releases to the local newspaper.

Let other organizations involved in the same issues know about the meeting and what was discussed.

Lobbying in Person in the District Office

Lobbying by Letter and E-Mail

They typical method for contacting a representative usually begins with an email. When composing the message write something very specific in the subject line. A staffer will be more tempted to delete or forward an e-mail before opening it if he or she doesn’t know what it is about. In the e-mail message, be sure to include all your contact information such as street address, telephone number, and title and organization if appropriate.

A representative constituent sentiment by analyzing the mail received on the subject. Both the quantity and the quality of letters are important.

The following suggestions will maximize your letter’s effect.

Discuss only one issue per letter.
Keep letters to one page.

Mention the bill number, its title, and the area of your concern in the first paragraph.
Relate the legislation to a local issue or law, and use local examples to show the effect on the district.
Ask a specific question about the bill or issue. This will increase the chances of receiving an individual response, not a form letter.
Always request a specific action, for example, “Please vote ‘Yes’ on H.R. 1111.”
Do not put a “cc” reference at the bottom of the letter to your representative or senator. This would suggest that other recipients are almost as important, and lessen the letter’s impact.
It is advisable to first submit your letter by email and then mail it as a follow up. This speeds your message on its way, which can be important when time is a factor. Also, staffers often prefer email to letters, which take more time to open and handle.

Lobbying by Phone
While letters or personal visits are the most effective methods of lobbying, telephone calls can also get results. Telephone calls can be especially important for time sensitive lobbying efforts. You can also make a follow-up call to check if your letter or e-mail has been received and registered. The same rules that apply to letter writing will also work for phone lobbying.

Remember:

Be concise.
Identify yourself as a constituent.

State the reason for your call by bill number and/or subject.

Ask a specific question or request a specific action.

Relate the bill to a local example or problem State your position as “for” or “against” the bill.

Ask where your member of congress stands on the issue.

Follow up the phone call with a letter.

As you know I have been involved in numerous political campaigns including organizing the voters of San Diego to recall their mayor. I organized a campaign, and implemented it.

All it takes is work and a strategy.

Here's an article from USA Today about those efforts:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... n/2585373/

Read this one:

https://www.inc.com/guides/2010/11/seve ... cians.html

Please read the attached article when I organized CLSA to file the Amicus Curiae brief in the San Dieguito case. It can be done if there is leadership on these issues.
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby TTaylor » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:33 pm

Maybe they gave it the ol' college try. Instead of defending the failed efforts, maybe it's time to come up with a new strategy to support the land Surveying profession.

That's what I did in my roles in the organization, like Mr. Pallamary.

Wait....Mike provided a road map.

Attack away. I'm used to that from this group.
Last edited by TTaylor on Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby Edward M Reading » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:15 pm

mpallamary wrote:...be succinct....


:)
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby E_Page » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:42 am

Good ideas Mike.
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:44 pm

It can be done if there is desire. That is the key.

Other organizations have done it and CLSA has done it in the past.

"The best way to predict the future is to create it." —Abraham Lincoln

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:47 pm

The tide is moving the boats. We should get on one.
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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:48 pm

"Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time."

—Thomas A. Edison

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:50 pm

"The task of the leader is to get their people from where they are to where they have not been."

--Henry Kissinger

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:58 pm

"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do."

--Mark Twain

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby TTaylor » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:56 pm

Mike, Clearly AB5 was ill conceived under the best of motivations for workers.

I do like and respect those that devote their free time to the Association by being officers and committee chairs. There is much people can learn from those that came before. You have provided a road map. I have suggested CLSA work with ACEC to repeal or rectify the potential harm of AB5.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby mpallamary » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:22 am

Excellent! All one can do is point.

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby LS_8750 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:49 pm

We're all officially not professionals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-xgd_eETE

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby dedkad » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:53 pm

One thing that I didn't see mentioned in the article above is how AB5 can negatively impact traffic safety. Uber and Lyft are great alternatives to people who have had too much to drink during a night on the town. Do we really want to send the drunks back home in their own cars?

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Re: AB5 and CLSA

Postby DWoolley » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:05 pm

dedkad wrote:One thing that I didn't see mentioned in the article above is how AB5 can negatively impact traffic safety. Uber and Lyft are great alternatives to people who have had too much to drink during a night on the town. Do we really want to send the drunks back home in their own cars?


We have an elderly friend that uses Uber for her doctor's appointments, grocery shopping, etc - her adult children are oftentimes unavailable during the weekdays. It will be interesting to see how it pans out for the ride sharing companies (technology platforms).

DWoolley


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