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Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:55 am
by E_Page
Many of you will remember a few months back, there was a thread about how to deal with an apparent excess in a lot which had been divided by "of" descriptions (Record 150' wide lot divided into 1. E 50' of W 100', 2. W 50', and 3. E 50'). Inevitably, the discussion turned to whether or not the excess resulted in a gap and whether the surveyor should identify a gap or determine and apply an appropriate manner of apportionment.

That prompted me to create a presentation which was given to a CLSA chapter in October. Afterward, one of the chapter members suggested that Dave Woolley and I give a presentation together of differing or contrary views on the matter. I thought it was a great idea, contacted Dave the next day and he enthusiastically agreed.

So here it comes...

On January 24th at the Annual Fresno Geomatics Conference, Dave and I will be giving back to back presentations on the subject, followed by a Q & A session/panel discussion/debate (we'll see how it turns out).

Personally, I'm really looking forward to it. However, I think that after I've given my portion, Dave is going to be so impressed with my unassailable logic that instead of giving the presentation he has prepared, he's going to just say "Gosh, Evan's right." ;-)

As Dave said to me "This is a complicated topic that would be a lot easier if you would just agree with me". A sentiment that goes both ways.

Obviously, this is a topic about which reasonable and knowledgeable surveyors can and do have differing views and are often very set in their views.

Here is what Dave and I submitted to the Conference Chair as descriptions:

Identification and Treatment of Gaps

When performing a survey, you find that there is more land than the conveyances appear to account for. Have you uncovered a question of boundary location only, or one of uncertain title? In other words, have you found a gap? If so, how do you report it and how do you help the landowners eliminate it?

Dave Woolley and Evan Page present opposing views to this topic followed by a joint discussion with question and answer period.



You Say You Found a Gap? Are You Sure?

Evan Page

The topic of “gaps” between conveyed parcels is one that occasionally comes up at chapter meetings, over drinks at “the conference after the conference” get togethers, and at the office between surveyors discussing a current project. It is a topic that comes up fairly often on the surveyors’ internet forums.

While there are circumstances by which actual gaps, or lands left unconveyed seemingly without intention to do so do occur, most gaps found by surveyors are actually cases where the surveyor has misidentified a boundary location problem as a title problem.

Mr. Page addresses how to tell the difference, and because of they way most of us have been taught, why a simple excess found only by recent measurement is not a gap. To borrow a phrase from Mr. Wooley, “the surveyor has no authority to open a gap” when the title record makes no room for it.



You find a gap in title, now what?

David Woolley

Two conveyances five years apart, the east 50.00’ and the west 50.00’ of an underlying map showing a monumented lot 100.00’ square, the surveyor measures 100.50’ between original monuments on the east-west lines, now what? Same scenario, except one lot is vacant and the second lot is built out with improvements, same solution? Same scenario, the original owner of the 100.00’ lives next door, same solution?


This will be fun. Hope to see you in the audience.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:18 pm
by Lee Hixson
I'm intrigued. But I can't find any information about the rest of the schedule/speakers/sessions for both days. I looked all over the Fresno website and came up empty. Can someone supply a good link?

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:23 pm
by Mr. Smith
Maybe it can be recorded for viewing later ?

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:54 pm
by E_Page
It seems that the Fresno Conference perennially comes out with the program only at the last moment. Based on the couple of times I've attended, and considering that it is students that coordinate it, they do a great job. I'd just suggest rechecking their website regularly until a program is posted.

I don't know if they will be recording any of the sessions. Try contacting the conference chair to ask.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:38 am
by Lee Hixson
I contacted the student conference chair and was supplied with the Preliminary Conference Schedule.

59th Annual Fresno State Geomatics Conference schedule.pdf

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:08 am
by Peter Ehlert
I can not attend, I sure hope that this and all of the other sessions are recorded and published.
I envy those that do attend.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm
by DWoolley
The deal has not been inked yet, but the Orange County chapter is working on getting the presentation video taped professionally. I took a chance a wedding videographer in the Fresno area isn't booked on a Friday in January between the hours of 8am and 12pm. I have been working on it today - shout out to Mr. Smith, OC chapter member, Peter Ehlert and Lee Hixon, thank you for the suggestions.

Next step is to get clearances/permissions from CSUF, Evan Page etc.

I am really looking forward to this land title discussion with Evan Page. Evan is always a very well prepared speaker and one of the most well researched land surveyors I know. I am sure to learn a few things.

Sincerely,

DWoolley

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:53 pm
by Scott
Evan,

I had a gap a few years ago for which a Judgement to Quiet Title was recorded.
I will not make it to the conference, but I hope to see the videos.
I tried to email you the details (8MB), but it was kicked back.
I also tried to private message you through this forum, but could not find it in my sent folder and nothing in the out folder.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:09 am
by DWoolley
The videographers are set and the permissions have been secured (thank you, Evan). The talented AV folks in the Orange County Chapter will need a little time to edit the video and get it posted on their website. However, they have everything in place.

Again, thank you to the forum contributors for the suggestion. Let it be said, let it be done.

DWoolley

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:45 pm
by LS_8750
Good news!
Looking forward to viewing the video.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:52 pm
by LS_8750
Good news!
Looking forward to viewing the video.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:05 pm
by sako
Is it possible to attend just the presentation? Do I need to register? is it too late?

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:37 pm
by DWoolley
The best I can offer is the email address that Evan and I have been corresponding to:

speakers.gmeconf@gmail.com

DWoolley

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:42 pm
by bruce hall
gosh, i gotta stake some curb and gutter tomorrow and a little storm drain. i lose out on this tremendously sounding exchange.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:23 am
by LS_8750
I would like to see Karoly present on Practical Location and Agreed Boundary Doctrine.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:17 pm
by Elias French
This is great stuff! Many thanks to Mr. Page and and Mr. Woolley for contributing their time and energies to what will no doubt be a very informative presentation, and thanks to Mr. Woolley for arranging to have it recorded. I too look forward to viewing the video, and regret not being able to attend.

It is only through continued open dialogue and self-education by us all that we may hope to reach better agreement on these thornier issues that we deal with for the most part by our lonesome in our daily work.

2nd on the comment on Mr. Karoly, and I recommend reaching out to him about it, as I believe he has a presentation on that topic that he has given to CLSA Chapters in the past.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:42 am
by Lee Hixson
I thoroughly enjoyed both the presentations by Dave and Evan. Despite how elusive the final answer might be, I think we are on the right track with such presentations. For now, I am leaning towards Dave's stance. What surprises me is that, given 150 years or so of CA courts dealing with land title disputes, one would think that there would be at least one or two appellate cases that would have already settled the dust on this issue. Apparently not.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:05 am
by mpallamary
Hi guys, Is it available to view? I could not make it as I was at a funeral.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:36 am
by PLS7393
mpallamary wrote:Hi guys, Is it available to view? I could not make it as I was at a funeral.


They did video tape the sessions, but not sure when it will be available. They had a couple cameras so it may be some time before they edit and make one presentation. I especially enjoyed the volunteers who participated in the session, with or without experience, heheheee!

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:53 pm
by E_Page
Scott wrote:Evan,

I had a gap a few years ago for which a Judgement to Quiet Title was recorded.
I will not make it to the conference, but I hope to see the videos.
I tried to email you the details (8MB), but it was kicked back.
I also tried to private message you through this forum, but could not find it in my sent folder and nothing in the out folder.


Scott,

Not sure what the problem might have been. Check your PMs to verify my email addresses.


LS_8750 wrote:I would like to see Karoly present on Practical Location and Agreed Boundary Doctrine.


I'd like to see that as well. I think that Dave has studied his way to being one of the most knowledgeable surveyors in the country on that aspect of boundary principles.


PLS7393 wrote:
mpallamary wrote:Hi guys, Is it available to view? I could not make it as I was at a funeral.


They did video tape the sessions, but not sure when it will be available. They had a couple cameras so it may be some time before they edit and make one presentation. I especially enjoyed the volunteers who participated in the session, with or without experience, heheheee!


For those who weren't there, 8 volunteers helped with a distance exercise and another with taking notes and doing a little math. For his part, Keith presented me with an invoice. What a price gouger! $1100 for 10 minutes of 2-man chaining crew. Check's in the mail, Keith.


We were hoping to be able to have several minutes of Q&A / discussion at the end, but Dave and I each had a lot of material to get through, which left no time at the end. Although we have essentially one fundamental point of disagreement, we ended up presenting a common theme of the importance of doing complete research and analysis. Neither of us were able to hang around very long afterward, so haven't gotten much feedback as to how it was received.

For any who were able to attend, I welcome any constructive comments as to what worked for you and what you think we could have done better or differently to deliver our messages effectively.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:28 pm
by marchenko
I thought you both did a wonderful job and commend you for being the highlight of the conference.

Sincerely, George Marchenko

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:54 am
by DWoolley
The video came in over the weekend. I sampled several portions of the video/audio. The recording looks clean, not quite an Oscar winning Netflix movie, but certainly clear enough to be watchable.

Orange County CLSA has designated someone to edit the video - essentially, cutting out dead time, if any, to shorten the presentation and inserting slides from the slideshow if they are not captured in the video.

Thank you to everyone for their comments, suggestions and attendance. I am grateful to Evan Page for making this presentation happen.

Sincerely,

DWoolley
.

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:52 am
by mpallamary
Excellent!

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:50 am
by kwilson
Where will the video be posted so that we can view it?

Re: Presentations You Don't Want To Miss

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:27 pm
by Man of Chain
What ever happened to this video?