Certificate for fee offer required with map

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dedkad
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Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby dedkad » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:48 am

Sec. 66477.5 of the Subdivision Map Act says that fee offers on maps for anything other than open space, parks, or schools, needs to be accompanied with a certificate attached to the map that includes:

1. The name of subdivider
2. Legal description of real property being dedicated
3. Statement that the local agency shall reconvey the property to the subdivider if the need for the designated purpose no longer exists

Have you seen one of these certificates? I’m looking for an example. Is it actually a separate certificate that records concurrently with the map or just some special wording in the City's Certificate on the map accepting the easements and fee offer?

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Warren Smith
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Warren Smith » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 am

My experience is that the specified language is included on the title sheet. Or, in the case of the attached, on the map sheet which contains the parcel.
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Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
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Tuolumne County

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Peter Ehlert
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Peter Ehlert » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:03 am

excellent note, thanks for clipping that Warren

I prefer that all such notes and statements are on the face of the actual map, on additional sheets if necessary, but better as in the example... so the consumers don't have much excuse to Not read it.
Peter Ehlert

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dedkad
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby dedkad » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:46 am

Thanks, Warren. I assume the offer for that fee parcel is still included in the Owner's Statement and accepted in the City Clerk's Statement. Is that correct?

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Warren Smith
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Warren Smith » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:15 am

Yes. The 66477.5 statement is an additional requirement for dedications as specified.
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
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Tuolumne County

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Proud7191
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Proud7191 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:28 am

I'm confused! The act states..... ARTICLE 3. Dedications [66475 - 66478] ( Article 3 added by Stats. 1974, Ch. 1536. )

66477.5.
(a) The local agency to which property is dedicated in fee for public purposes,

Isn't DEDICATED IN FEE an oxymoron? According to Blacks law dictionary " the donation of land or creation of an easement for public use"
and Fee, simplified from Fee Simple is " An interest in land that, being the broadest property interest allowed by law...."
Very confusing profession. Jp

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Warren Smith
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Warren Smith » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:44 am

This statement would not apply to dedications of easements for public purposes. If they were to be later abandoned, the underlying fee title owner would simply be relieved of the encumbrance.

It is intended to apply to dedications in fee, which could, once vacated, could be transferred at the local agency's discretion to anyone. This limits the grantee to be the original subdivider or its successors.

Easy-peasy, right?
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
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Tuolumne County

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Proud7191
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Proud7191 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:49 am

Thanks Warren, so "dedication in fee" is usable area of land such as a park or public square that when the public's interest is vacated the ownership goes to the local agency for their use or to be sold as real property for other uses. That principal makes sense, but I wish they did not mix terms. It is hard enough to get engineers and planners to understand dedication vs. fee ownership without mixing terms within the law. Jp

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marchenko
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby marchenko » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:08 am

Recheck Black's Law Dictionary, my editions reads " The appropriation of land, or an easement therein. Dedication means making a gift, there is a giftor and a giftee. George Marchenko

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Proud7191
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Proud7191 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:34 pm

George, I guess you are making my point. Even different additions of Blacks(9th edition) is causing confusion but I see no place where Blacks combines Dedication and Fee. Point being dedication is an owners gift to the public. Fee would be a purchase for the public use. In my case our city sometimes purchases real property for road widening then dedicates the same to the public use. With the idea being that if the road is not needed in the future the public has a means to recoup the fee ownership cost spent on the fair value market price we were forced to pay for the widening r/w. I'm in Oregon but I suspect the principals are equal.
Interesting topic, Jon

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Warren Smith
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Warren Smith » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:48 pm

Dedication for public purposes requires an offer and an acceptance to be considered a complete process (in California). The dedication can be in fee or as an easement.

Consideration is often monetary, but can be as a condition to the granting of a development permit. That is, if a widening is necessary due to the increase in traffic from a subdivision, it is an acceptable exaction from the developer. Of course, it must be in compliance with the General Plan traffic element.
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
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Tuolumne County

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Proud7191
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Proud7191 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:13 pm

Warren, same in Oregon. I still have an issue with Dedication being in fee. The definition of dedication includes donation which is "to give (property of money) without receiving consideration for the transfer.(Blacks 5th ed). Thanks, Jon

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Warren Smith
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Warren Smith » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:46 pm

Jon, it's best in these situations to use the definitions in the appropriate codified statutes. Most are dealt with in the Streets and Highways Code, and others in the Government Code. That's what the Courts do, after all.
Warren D. Smith, LS 4842
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Tuolumne County

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Proud7191
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby Proud7191 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:10 am

Warren, thanks for the tip. I'm projecting to much of Oregon into the discussion. I resorted to Blacks after the my search for definitions in Oregon code seem to be lacking. It is nice when a section of the law recites the definitions used for the law but it is very confusing when they don't and definitions from other states/places get carried over and used generically. Thanks again for your technical knowledge, that is why I read these forums. Jon

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marchenko
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby marchenko » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:22 am

"Dedication is the intentional giving or donation of private property or private property rights,. either in fee or in the form of an easement, by an individual to the state or one of its political subdivisions, a charitable body or organization or utility, for public, semi public, or charitable use" - Section 26.01, first sentence, Clark - Seventh Edition.

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dedkad
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby dedkad » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:31 am

The legislature tried to clear things up regarding dedications in fee or easement, at least on subdivision maps, by revising Sec. 66477 of the SMA to require concise language stating that the real property is dedicated in fee or dedicated as an easement.

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subman
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Re: Certificate for fee offer required with map

Postby subman » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:18 am

Example of standard notes placed on title sheet of a map in LA County


We hereby grant Lot 48 in simple to the County of Los Angeles. (Part of Owners Statement)


Also noted on Title Sheet

Pursuant to section 66477.5 of the Subdivision Map Act, the County of Los Angeles shall reconvey "Lot 48" to the subdivider named below if a determination is made that the same public purpose for which the fee dedication was required does not exist, except for all or any portion of the property that is required for that same public purpose or for public utilities.

Subdivider: BMIF/BSLF II Rancho Malibu. LP
18401 Von Karman Avenue, No. 350 Irvine, CA 92612


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