Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

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mpallamary
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Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:40 am

Does the Executive Board or the association monitor the forum to keep track of the topics being discussed? There are a lot of very important topics and issues being debated. From my perspective, the forum is a powerful voice of the surveying community. Would it not make sense for someone - a committee of some sort - to monitor all of this and use it to give direction to the association? Unless these conversations are properly considered, the forum serves nothing more than as a gossip site. Wouldn't it make sense to use it for something more productive? Where else are important things being discussed and debated? The dual stamp topic is a good one.

We should use these tools we have created, should we not?

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Mr. Smith
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby Mr. Smith » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:20 am

Your points are well taken mpallamary but;
I prefer the site as a place to let off steam and banter (without ridicule) with others
who work in a similar profession. Most (myself included) learn from this site and that makes it productive.
From my perspective the “Executive Board” or “Committee” is not what drives CLSA, rather, it is the rank and file.

Brian

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:49 am

Excellent comment! Thanks!

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land butcher
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby land butcher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am

I agree with both comments. There is no reason to change the forum as it is and the executive committee could, and probably does, monitor the board to add direction to the profession. The committee could make comments just like the members, that would tell us how the ruling body feels on pertinent subjects.
I think this does happen but we are not on a need to know basis especially since there are forums on here that cannot be accessed by the general membership.

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:50 am

I hate to see valuable tools and ideas wasted. I am not proposing to change anything. What I am proposing is for the Executive Board to formally monitor it for good ideas. A mind is a terrible thing to waster as is a good idea!

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Peter Ehlert
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby Peter Ehlert » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:53 pm

it seems simple to follow the normal/traditional path... bring ideas/complaints to the Chapter Reps. and discuss at Chapter Meetings.
face to face, telephone, electronic... whatever works
Peter Ehlert

William Magee
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby William Magee » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 am

Best way to get action is to create a problem statement and a prposed solution. And articulate the proposed solution fully, such as craft the verbiage necessary.

Don”t expect to bitch and moan on a forum with an expectation for others to carry the torch and craft the solution.
Don't shoot the messenger.

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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby PLS7393 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:49 am

Mike has valued points, but I've seen the Executive Comm. not want to get involved. Seems you want to be an Executive Officer, but not stand up for what the majority of members want. Just a little contradicting from my viewpoint, unless the goal is to bolster your resume with CLSA credentials? Prime example is that I've posted issues on this here forum over the years, was told to submit a formal proposal to the Legislative Committee with my idea, which I did back in October of 2018 and . . . nothing. Oh I did receive a phone call from the State Pres. at the time, with his disagreement of my proposal.
Heard nothing more from CLSA or anyone on the Leg. Committee that were all cc'd, so my proposal must be in the compost bin by now. Makes me proud to be a paying (active) member.
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
PLS 7393

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DWoolley
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby DWoolley » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:33 am

[Post intentionally deleted, triplicate]
Last edited by DWoolley on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby DWoolley » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:33 am

[Accidental double post deleted]
Last edited by DWoolley on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby DWoolley » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:34 am

PLS7393 wrote:Mike has valued points, but I've seen the Executive Comm. not want to get involved. Seems you want to be an Executive Officer, but not stand up for what the majority of members want. Just a little contradicting from my viewpoint, unless the goal is to bolster your resume with CLSA credentials? Prime example is that I've posted issues on this here forum over the years, was told to submit a formal proposal to the Legislative Committee with my idea, which I did back in October of 2018 and . . . nothing. Oh I did receive a phone call from the State Pres. at the time, with his disagreement of my proposal.
Heard nothing more from CLSA or anyone on the Leg. Committee that were all cc'd, so my proposal must be in the compost bin by now. Makes me proud to be a paying (active) member.


PLS7393:

CLSA is governed by the Board of Directors, not the Executive Committee. This is/was a common misunderstanding, even by the most active of members. The association was captured for many years and the directors had ceded their authority to the Executive Committee. In fact, as recently as 2010, the Orange County directors wrote a letter to the Executive Committee requesting funding for a project. In turn, the Executive Committee refused the request and OC accepted it. Bizarre in hindsight.

Interestingly, in 2010, former Executive Committee members, unsolicited past presidents, began to coalesce and stroke OC chapter directors as to the "process" - which, again, centered around the Executive Committee. These same folks assured the board they had checked CLSA finances and especially, the work of the CLSA CPA. Of course, the same CPA was prosecuted by the California Attorney General for his work on the CLSA taxes and forever prohibited by court order from working for a nonprofit again. However, back in 2010-2013, we remained hoodwinked into the acceptance of the structure. Understand that at the time I had been a director for many years and a legislative committee member, arguably "knowledgeable" as to governance. Ridiculous in hindsight.

There are remnants of the old caste system - as evidenced by a president quashing your idea. Regardless of the merits of your idea - it should have been presented to the board of directors for an up or down vote. Frankly, PLS 7393, I do not recall ever seeing anything presented from you or your chapter at the board or a legislative committee meeting. Reach out to your director with a written proposal and ask that it is placed on the next agenda. Agenda items are due 30 days before the meeting. The next meeting is at the end if April.

The directors represent the members. Members have a duty to elect their directors. Directors should provide the pathway and process to a member seeking services. In the event the directors reject, by vote, an idea, well, that is generally the end of it - unless you have the wear with all to repackage it and send to back.

I sincerely believe the governance is working better than I have seen it over the last 20 years. The current president is an ambitious leader that truly understands governance. She leads the best, independent minded and well balanced, executive committee I have seen in my tenure. I believe the members will see the culmination of many years of structural work begin to payoff. The financial accounting is legitimate, the board is fielding and voting on real land surveying issues, the board has accepted the charge of active governance and the board takes honest votes based on the merits of the argument. Yes, there remains sparse remnants of the, now bitter, backroom crowd, but they are little more than an inconvenience today.

I do not accept the CLSA has faded. On the contrary, the association has been restructured and reborn in recent years. The governance structure is honest and according to the rules. CLSA is now in the best position to serve the members. To say otherwise is to be uninformed. I would encourage any member to write a letter to the board or attend a board meeting - most can be accessed via a conference call. Alternatively, ask one of your directors about the work at the board. I am confident you will hear there is real work being done. There is a real spirit of cooperation and seldom a cross word in the healthy debates on practice based issues.

DWoolley

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

I agree with Dave - the association is headed in the right direction. One of the most important things we can do is avoid repeating the past.

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PLS7393
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby PLS7393 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:25 am

Thanks Dave, and as you know I have spent multiple years as a Director, and assisted on various committees associated with two chapters. Unfortunately in the past I saw things among directors that went against the direction of the chapter members on some votes, as I sat there in disbelief. I actually received a phone call yesterday from one of the members on the Leg. Committee pertaining my post, as he never saw or heard of my proposal. I appreciated the call and we had a good conversation as he was going to follow up and see what was going on.

As for my viewpoint, take it as it is, but I have been around long enough to see the good and bad. Personally it starts with the local chapter, and some chapters have been going in the wrong direction over the years, so hopefully they can change things around. I know CLSA is a volunteer organization and there are some good people at both the state and local level, but most private surveyors in my area do not attend the local meeting anymore, so someone should ask why?
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
PLS 7393

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Mr. Smith
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby Mr. Smith » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:02 am

Private sector surveyors not showing up, would be interesting to know why that is, could it be the $75 tax for recording, or maybe the
$400 per year DIR tax just to bid government jobs? or possibly the 2 man crew mandate? I personally do not blame CLSA for all of these,
but some might.

Don't have the answers but without rank and file participation the order dies.

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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby hellsangle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Keith . . .

When I was president of our chapter (Marin) a confidential/anonymous survey regarding what-are-we-doing-wrong? - was compiled.

For what its worth - attached are a survey and synopsis of comments from survey.

I'm been around our chapter since mid-1970s. In those days some old 'n crusty forefathers (like I'm becoming! Ha) that argued/debated with great fervor. (More often that not, it was more likely Record of Survey checking fees.) Always with respect . . . and never with a raised voice. The ol' duffers were approachable to ask questions and not feel belittled or stupid.

Now at times it is like a child with a God-Complex or Narcissistic Personality Disorder that can't wait to tattle-tail to the Board instead of picking up the phone and having a civil conversation. How can disrespecting others at a meeting (or on the Discussion Page), be professional?

Crazy Phil - Sonoma

Surveyor to Recorder!
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E_Page
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby E_Page » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:10 pm

Rare agreement with Magee!

This forum was not designed to be the avenue that ideas get to the Board of Directors for consideration. If there is a perceived problem or need for some action, the issue probably falls within the purview of one or more committees. Some committees have a particular form or process to use to help members clearly explain the issue and to provide one or more ideas for a solution (or part of a solution).

There are something like 1600 to 1800 members of CLSA, yet probably less than 200 who are involved in any capacity at the state level where many of the issues discussed on this forum would be addressed (if someone brought them to the attention of the BoD or an appropriate committee).

Of those 200 or so, several serve or have served on several committees and/or in other positions at the state level. I've done that and am in a phase of suffering burnout from it. Much of the frustration leading to burnout is in finding members willing to serve on committees. I've also found that there's a difference between saying that one will serve and then actually answering the call when it comes.

An equally significant, or perhaps more significant contributor to burnout for me is reflected in the Synopsis that Phil posted. The lack of civility is not limited to the chapter level. Trying to get some folks to cooperate, even in the slightest to address matters in which there any amount of contentiousness is damn near impossible. I've dealt with a lot of people who once behaved like adults refuse to work with others yet say they are open to reasonable compromise.

Unfortunately, "reasonable compromise" for many of these folks means that the other guy must first apologize for all real or imagined slights of the past, and if the other guy won't agree to a solution that gives "me" 90% to 100% of what "I" want as a starting position, the "compromise" isn't "reasonable" enough to even provide a starting point for discussion.

Our entire society is beginning to look as uncivil and dysfunctional as congress.


OK, getting off my cantankerous tangent and back to what I hope is a useful suggestion...

If there are matters you feel the CLSA should address, get a good clear explanation to the appropriate committee or provide it to your chapter directors to bring up as new business at the BoD.

Better yet, be willing and make the time to help do the work on the committee or committees that would be doing the work to address the matter.

A volunteer organization only works if enough of the members join in the responsibility of making the organization run. Paying dues is not enough. All those involved in running the organization at the state and/or chapter levels pay the same dues as everyone else, and most of them contribute even more $ as well as committing their time.

I have often heard "CLSA should do something about _____!"

If you've said that, you're right.

You are CLSA. Do something!
Evan Page, PLS
A Certain Forum Essayist

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:49 am

I agree. What happens if one volunteers to serve on a committee and, because of politics, is never asked to participate?

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:51 am

There was a time in my life when I devoted ten hours a week to CLSA activities, committees, writing articles, organizing, etc. That is true for many of us. What changed and why?

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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 am

Evan,

Back in 1989, the City of San Diego violated state law by hiring a civil engineer to check subdivision maps. I organized the chapter and we took a number of steps to convince the city to do the right thing. This took a lot of time and was a good example of the association working together. As a result, the city hired Lee Hennes and later Greg Hopkins. We did this by working hard and working together. San Diego set the bar with regards to this issue. Is this what you were referring to when you say get involved?
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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:29 am

Evan,

Back in 1992, I served as the chairman organizing CLSA in getting involved, as Amicus Curiae, in the San Dieguito Lot Line Adjustment lawsuit. I spent about 500 hours working on this. As a result, we got a published decision wherein CLSA was recognized for its contributions to establishing state law. We did this by working hard and working together. Is this what you were referring to when you say get involved?
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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:34 am

Evan,

After Jas Arnold passed, I organized a Final Point memorial for Jas and I wrote an article about Jas's contributions to CLSA. It was very rewarding and it reflected very well on CLSA. Is this what you were referring to when you say get involved?
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mpallamary
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby mpallamary » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:08 am

I agree with your assessment Evan. There is a big difference between those who work very hard and donate hundreds, if not thousands of hours to accomplish important things that advance the interests of the profession as opposed to those who make a lot of noise and produce nothing of substance. The measure of a man/woman is measured by their accomplishments, not his/her musings.

"Without hard work, nothing grows but weeds."

- Gordon B. Hinckley

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land butcher
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Re: Valuable Forum Ideas and Discussions

Postby land butcher » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:30 am

Our entire society is beginning to look as uncivil and dysfunctional as congress.


I agree. In all my years I have never witnessed uncompromising positions between people as we have today, Sad.


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