200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

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subman
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Location: Ventura County

200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby subman » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:54 pm

i am interested in feedback from City/County Surveyors.

I have an unusual situation. My client recorded a 94 lot tract map in 2006, built a few homes and the recession hit. The tract was graded, curb and gutter installed and streets paved, before the project went into hibernation. The subdivision agreement expired in 2008. In 2016, the economy recovers, my client enters into a new subdivision agreement and builds out the tract and the last thing to do is set the deferred monuments. The company originally hired to do the tract map (Civil firm) wants nothing to do with the setting of the monuments and referred my client to the out-of-area surveyor who signed the map in 2006 when he worked for them. He gave a bid from his current employer, but it was significantly high. I get hired (I am local and have other projects with him). The surveyor of record gives me a release letter. I start to do recon and I find a significant number of center line and PL prod LT&T monuments (200+). However, they were not set by the surveyor of record (Surveyor A). Coincidentally, the tags belong to another surveyor (Surveyor B) who was the surveyor of record for an adjacent tract that was recorded in 2003 and developed in 2005. He currently lives out of state. The City has no record of inspecting the monuments. Client has given me a letter acknowledging that he never had a contract with Surveyor B.

The City is holding my clients monument security ($10,000). I have essentially drafted a new map in AutoCAD, calculated lot corners and center line intersection points; run closures and have performed a closed field traverse (closed within 0.03') to establish horizontal control. No point files or AutoCAD files were available. And yes, there are some summation errors along street sidelines that extend to adjacent sheets that need to be documented and corrected on the Certificate of Correction (COC).

What options do you see that would best protect the public and allow my client to fulfill his contractual obligations (subdivision agreement) with the City in a timely manner.

All I know at this point is I have a bunch of "no ref" monuments in the top of curb and until I do a complete as-built, I don't know yet if they fit the recorded map lot lines and center lines. I also need to set center line ties for the "no ref" centerline S&Ws.

Is it appropriate for a Certificate of Correction to be filed by Surveyor C (me), certifying the location of Surveyor B's "no ref" tags in lieu of Surveyor A's deferred tags as indicated on the recorded map. Surveyor B has no internet business presence providing contact information.

What if some of Surveyor B's monuments are set incorrectly. Under what conditions, if appropriate and not done with malicious intent, can another surveyors monuments be removed? Should they be left and documented as a "witness" monument to my correctly placed monuments? My concern is the public confusion that might be created.

Looking forward to some feedback.

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ekparian
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Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby ekparian » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:17 am

I am not city or county but I believe I have seen this situation arise a couple years ago while working on a tract adjacent to an older tract. the older tract had a tract map and someone else filed a record of survey over the entire tract.
It seems that could be the cleanest way to document your findings.
That way, you can write a narrative of the project history in the notes, document surveyor b's tagged monuments and keeps public records straight. You can also document the lines that are differing because of forced closure.
I guess just make sure the city would sign off on that.
Otherwise, it sounds like a whole lot of info to try to squeeze on a coc.
Also, without a PTR during a retracement survey, and without knowledge of the history of the tract and knowing of an existing COC, a COC can be pretty hard to find while researching... I know I missed them during research in the past. ROS is easy to find while researching properties in the future.

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Brian Christensen
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Location: Siskiyou County

Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby Brian Christensen » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:28 am

Public confusion will exist no matter what.
File an ROS then prepare a Cert. of Correction that references the ROS. Narrative the crap out of it.
You may end up yielding to the existing monuments if they were relied upon during construction.
That's gonna be one heck of an ROS.
Brian Christensen, PLS, CMS
Siskiyou County Surveyor

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PLS7393
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Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby PLS7393 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:12 am

As mentioned before, a ROS is the best at this point. I am no longer in the public sector, and have seen a similar situation here in the Unincorporated Hayward hills (Alameda County), so the county agreed. The purpose of the ROS was to set monuments with another's surveyors number.

As for the LT&T by (Surveyor B), is his license in good standing and active even though they are out of state? If you want to tie them out on your dime, your a good man. If they do not represent anything on the filed map, then maybe the Board is interested in the purpose of them.

I do not think a certificate of correction is the best avenue due to the number of monuments you are dealing with.

That's my 0.02
Good luck
Keith Nofield, Professional Land Surveying
PLS 7393

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mpallamary
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Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby mpallamary » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:14 am

I had that problem in a SoCal city and I forced the city to release the bond - in the public's best interests - under the threat of a lawsuit.

You have to be careful as the bond could expire. It took a city council vote but they "saw the light."

As to the other surveyor, he has the duty to file a record.

A.Westerlund
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 1:09 pm

Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby A.Westerlund » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:32 am

How do you set 200 moments and not file some sort of record within 10-15 years?

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Mr. Smith
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Location: Montague CA
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Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby Mr. Smith » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:50 pm

And if you are the unlucky bugger who stumbles on them then you get to file a record.

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Anthony Maffia
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Location: Contra Costa County, CA

Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby Anthony Maffia » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:26 pm

If no lots have been sold, then an amended tract map might be an option. I've done it that way before.
- Anthony Maffia, LSIT

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E_Page
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Location: El Dorado County

Re: 200+ "NO REFERENCE" MONUMENTS

Postby E_Page » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:09 pm

You should be able to get some means of contact (mailing address) from BPELSG.

If the Surveyor B points were not relied on, don't fit the lot layout, are not referenced on any other record map, and with permission of the owners of the land being subdivided, I don't see a problem removing those otherwise meaningless monuments.

Beyond that, I agree with Brian Christensen. RS with copious use of notations and narrative.
Evan Page, PLS
A Certain Forum Essayist


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