California Surveyors Forums  

Go Back   California Surveyors Forums > General Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:06 PM
LS7773
 
Posts: n/a
Fractional Sections

I am doing research in a fractional section (31) for a future Parcel Map and the existing Map that was surveyed in 1906 went an even split between the Northwest-Northeast corners and an even split for the Southwest-Southeast corners. I do not have a 1902 manual, but was that correct method? Attached is the Map - Thanks
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SM07-031.pdf (153.8 KB, 365 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-08-2012, 10:59 PM
pls7809 pls7809 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 987
I also do not have a 1902 manual. Were the lots from the 1906 map conveyed in deeds after this subdivision, or were the aliquot parts or Government Lots conveyed? If the lots from the 1906 subdivision were conveyed, then the methods used in that map control. If the conveyances in Section 31 never refer to SM07/31, then it could be that the aliquot breakdown controls, or the SM methods may still control. Once in private hands sections could be subdivided any way the owners saw fit. The corners shown on the map at the even splits may not be the 1/4 corners, but actually the corners of those lots. How does the BLM Township plat show the section's subdivision into quarters?

I think the correct method would have been to place the 1/4 corners at a proportional 40 chains from the NE and SE section corners if the surveyor was trying create the aliquot breakdown.

Anyway, that's my understanding.
__________________
Ryan Versteeg, PLS
(951) 486-1501
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-09-2012, 03:15 AM
LS7773
 
Posts: n/a
Yes, lots were conveyed after this subdivision. My concern is that the Center Quarter Corner per this map is not the Center Quarter Corner of the section. The same with the North Quarter Corner and the South Quarter Corner - yet with other parcels being surveyed by Record of Surveys and Parcel Maps - Other surveyors are calling them the Government Corners. I am requesting the BLM Plat today.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:17 AM
cals6406 cals6406 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Empire
Posts: 89
A copy of the 1902 Manual is available here.

http://www.californiacentralvalleysurveyors.org/chapter_library/BLMbooks.shtml

As are copies of all the BLM Manuals of Instruction (except the new one).


I also have a second copy of the 1902 Manual (printed 1908) available for sale or trade.
__________________
Keith Spencer, LS, CFedS

Last edited by cals6406 : 06-15-2012 at 05:20 PM. Reason: updated link to library-now open for all
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:32 AM
cals6406 cals6406 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Empire
Posts: 89
Map was prepared by County Surveyor.

Is this map the original subdivison of this Section?

Was this Section public or private when subdivided by the County Surveyor?

See Clark 7th 10.22 on center of section by County Surveyor before you make your decision.

Good Luck.
__________________
Keith Spencer, LS, CFedS

Last edited by cals6406 : 02-09-2012 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Added a question.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:51 AM
Ian Wilson Ian Wilson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,174
Mauro,

I am confused. Why is this a fractional section?

Section 31 was entirely subdivided in 1906. As Ryan stated, once the land passed into private hands, the "Manual" no longer has any bearing. The sub-divider could choose to re-divide the section by any method they chose. Remember, too, that until March 4, 1972, property owners on California. Old subdivide ther property by deeds; maps were not required, except in certain jurisdictions.

Regardless of what "others" have labeled the monuments in this section, the monuments that hold sway and will likely be upheld by the courts are the ancient ones that were established in 1906.

Be very careful of the fact that "better measuring through better electronics" is a dangerous approach and will absolutely screw up private property rights.

BTW - in this case, the GLO plat is now. You posted the only map that has any standing or precedence in the further subdivision of this section.
__________________
Ian Wilson, P.L.S. (CA / NV / CO)
Land Surveying Practice Leader
Cardno, Inc.
701 University Avenue, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825
916.692.3104 (p)
916.923.6251 (f)
916.960.9573 (c)
ian.wilson@cardno.com

www.cardno.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:58 AM
E_Page E_Page is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: El Dorado County
Posts: 2,008
Check out the attached case as well. It's an OR case, but it's also a good bet that the CA courts would rule similarly if the issue were presented to them.

Even if the current descriptions call out aliquot divisions rather than lots of the Lindsay Orchard Colony Tract, it is most likely that those divisions were laid out with reference to the monuments set by Smith (Tulare County Surveyor in 1906).

The GLO created plats, monumented the section and exterior 1/4 corners, and rarely monumented any corners interior to the section. The plats normally show protracted divisions. These protracted divisions were the plan of how the federal government intended the sections to be divided. But the GLO recognized that the local or county surveyor would be the authorized person to subdivide sections which had passed out of federal ownership.

I don't know how many manuals one would have to go back to find the express statement by the BLM/GLO regarding private surveyors and section subdivision, but 3-76 of the 1973 Manual is quite clear that the BLM "desires" that the local or county surveyor follow the federal plan for the subdivision of sections, but they are not required to do so by federal law.

If the local or county surveyor did not fully follow the prescribed plan, that does not necessarily invalidate that surveyor's subdivision. And if the description calls for the aliquot division, that does not necessarily override the surveyor's subdivision in favor of the "technically correct" division per the method described in the current Manual or the one which was in effect at the time of the subdivision.

All of the land shown as part of the Lindsay Orchards Colony Tract were presumably in the private ownership of one person or entity at the time of subdivision. The County Surveyor, while not recognizing the difference to the standard method of subdividing a section for a fractional section (or perhaps not recognizing Section 31 as fractional), used the standard method for a normal section. He was presumably the first to subdivide the section by marking the lines on the ground. It is therefore the first actual (as opposed to protracted) subdivision of that section and is the controlling one.

Having passed out of federal ownership prior to the subdivision in 1906, the subdivision per the map of Lindsay Orchards Colony Tract, hopefully witnessed by either original monuments or monuments with pedigree that can be traced to Lindsay Orchard Colony Tract, is the controlling subdivision, superseding the GLO protraction where it differs.


In Dykes v Arnold attached, the county surveyor had set the C 1/4 in 1899 at midpoint between the E 1/4 and the W 1/4, and that monument was recognized and relied upon for the establishment of several parcels over the years. Then about 100 years later, a surveyor came along and decided that the County Surveyor in 1899 was wrong and that the C 1/4 needed to be redefined "correctly" at a position that was on the intersection of straight lines between opposing 1/4 corners and 71' away from the 1899 monument, thus tossing the neighborhood into disarray and unneighborly mayhem.

Part of the discussion in the ruling is that the method used by the County Surveyor in 1899, while not being the one described in the GLO Manual or Instructions in effect in 1899, was a method commonly employed in the area during that era. The method used by Smith is undoubtedly common and is the correct one for a standard section, deviating even less from the modified method prescribed for a fractional section than Smith's did from the method prescribed under the circumstances of his survey (although the method Smith used was a method temporarily prescribed by a US Surveyor General in MO - IIRC, not too many years prior to Smith's survey). The Dykes court does a great job of explaining the legal reasoning why the 1899 was the correct corner, why the mathmagically correct corner was wrong, and relies heavily upon the BLM Manual to show it. It's a beautiful thing. It should be required reading for every boundary surveyor.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Dykes v Arnold.doc (110.0 KB, 139 views)
__________________
Evan Page, PLS

Last edited by E_Page : 02-09-2012 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-09-2012, 03:49 PM
LS7773
 
Posts: n/a
Thanks for all the input - I like to hear from others. Ian, my intention was to hold the monuments that I found and complete the survey per that subdivision map. I just had doubts as to what to call the North quarter corner if it is truely not. Attached is the government plat -Evan thanks for the case.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Plat-T20R27.pdf (235.5 KB, 223 views)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:37 AM
LS_8750 LS_8750 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sonoma
Posts: 332
Read that Dykes case a thousand times. And then read it again.
Proportioning in aliquot corners should be an absolute last resort, and even then you should really check your premises because there will be a property owner who has believed his property line to be in a different location than your math solution, and that property owner will prevail in court.

You have other surveys in the Section? You are lucky.
Occupation will likely trump any of your math corners. Be very careful.
__________________
Clark E. Stoner, PE, PLS
CFS Engineering
Sonoma County
Santa Cruz County
tel. 707.996.8449 (Sonoma) or 831.477.9215 (Santa Cruz)
stoner@cfsengineering.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:18 AM
E_Page E_Page is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: El Dorado County
Posts: 2,008
Gosh Mauro, that Section 31 is so close to being a normal section that any difference in method between that for a standard section and that for a fractional section would be insignificant.
__________________
Evan Page, PLS
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-13-2012, 03:03 PM
bruce hall bruce hall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: huntington beach, orange county, california
Posts: 808
In Wood vs. Mandrilla the fight was over where a fractional portion of a section lay on the ground. It was in Section 30, just above yours. Different Township and Range though.

The Supreme Court stated that after the quarter corners where set then the 16th corners were to be set equidistant from the appropriate quarter corners. It didn't have anything to do with setting quarter corners. Just a thought.

I like what Evan and Ian said better than what I have added. Should delete, oh well.
__________________
Bruce Hall Land Surveyor No. 4743
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-14-2012, 11:33 AM
McGee McGee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 23
The 1906 Map has the appearance of a subdivision map creating new lots within the boundary of a Gov't Section and if the subdividers owned all of the Section they can create whatever they want. The N 1/4 by GLO definition was not set and the corner shown is a Lot Corner (or maybe not if the dedication to the County for the road is in fee). Interestly, I don't see where the Map indicates what corners were found or set begging the question what are the controlling original Gov't Corners for this Section ? I agree that if the deeds calls for the Lots on the Map, they supersede aliquot parts. It appears from what information has been disclosed, the Map rules.
__________________
Michael McGee, PLS3945
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-23-2012, 11:13 AM
RetiredCalLS RetiredCalLS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5
I Agree with McGee

Your job it to survey your specific deed. Show all other found items and lines of occupation. Any other Assumptions or Interpretations are a legal matter for the Courts.

S. Davis Retired LS 4968
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:32 PM
E_Page E_Page is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: El Dorado County
Posts: 2,008
Your job is to identify the boundaries of the property you were hired to survey.

It may be possible that at some point, one or more of these properties, originally conveyed as Lot X of the subdivision had its description erroneously changed to the aliquot division.

Being so close to the size and shape of the aliquot division, such a mistake could very well have happened. If you have a description that calls for the aliquot, but there is also evidence that it was conveyed as Lot X when 1st sold, then it should be surveyed as Lot X per that subdivision.

In this particular case, even if it was 1st described as the aliquot, I would survey it as Lot X of the subdivision.

Some of you may now be exclaiming "Page, you're reckless!!! You are taking it upon yourself to interpret intent contrary to the clear, unambiguous description!!! You don't know what the he!! you're talking about!!!"

To that, I reply with all due respect "Phhhttttt!!!!!"


Take a look at the GLO plat. The dimensions are: East line = 80 ch; South line = 80 ch; West line = 80 ch; and the North line = 79.99 ch.

The only thing that makes this section fractional is that the North line is 1 link shy of a full mile (perhaps the same could be said about those who say that Mauro should reinvent the wheel and toss the subdivision in favor of a "correct" Ch 3 section subdivision).

That's 1 link! 0.66'!! On just one exterior section line!!!

On all but the North line, the 1/4 corners would be properly re-established at the midpoints of the section lines, just as was done for Lindsay Orchard. Along those lines, the Lot corners and the corners of the aliquot divisions are the same. No quibbling about it.

Along the North line, the Lot corner and the properly established Ch. 3 1/4 corner would be 0.33' apart. The C 1/4 and the Lot corner near it would be 0.16' apart, as would the E 1/16 between Sections 30 & 31 from the Lot corner near it.

But what were the monuments at those locations? The legend says 6x6 posts at the Section Corners, 4x4s at the 1/4s (or the lot corners where there is a difference and to be technically correct), and 2x4s at the 1/16s.

In each case, the mathemagical difference is less than the size of the object marking the corner's location. Further, the differences were probably well within the expected amount of positional error for the survey of Lindsay Orchard and certainly well within the actual positional errors of the original GLO surveys.

Those facts, together with the extremely low likelihood that anyone having described one of the parcels by the aliquot division at nearly the identical spot would have set monuments so close to those established for Lindsay orchard (in most cases, they would have had to knock the Lindsay post over to accommodate the new "correct" monument) leads me to interject a bit of common sense into my professional judgment and bring me to interpret the intent (egad!!!) as being one and the same whether described a s Lot X or as the aliquot division, and that the boundaries should be re-established according to the survey of Lindsay Orchards and the monuments thereof.
__________________
Evan Page, PLS
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-24-2012, 01:32 PM
Ian Easton Ian Easton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 36
I'm with Evan on this one. I think it's all quite clear on the Lindsay Colony Tract what the intention of the subdivision was meant to be.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-24-2012, 02:07 PM
dmi dmi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 921
Lots are what makes some call it fractional

The reason the section is called fraction is because the section contains lots. Over time the habit has formed whereby sections with lots have been called "fractional". This section is not a fractional section as defined by the current manual.

The current manual attempts to correct this habit and reserve the term for sections that are truly fractional. these are sections where opposite1/4 corners cannot or have not been fixed because the section is invaded by a body of water or a senior grant.
__________________
Dane Ince, LS
Certified Federal Surveyor
415-321-9300
WWW.SanFranciscoSurveyingCompany.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-24-2012, 04:06 PM
Ian Wilson Ian Wilson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,174
Thank you, Dane!
__________________
Ian Wilson, P.L.S. (CA / NV / CO)
Land Surveying Practice Leader
Cardno, Inc.
701 University Avenue, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825
916.692.3104 (p)
916.923.6251 (f)
916.960.9573 (c)
ian.wilson@cardno.com

www.cardno.com
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-29-2012, 08:56 AM
Stephen Johnson Stephen Johnson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by cals6406 View Post
http://www.californiacentralvalleysu...BLMbooks.shtml


As are copies of all the BLM Manuals of Instruction (except the new one).


I also have a second copy of the 1902 Manual (printed 1908) available for sale or trade.
I added a couple of PDF's of manuals I have found over the years to their collection
__________________
Stephen Johnson, PLS 6303

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them."

Politicians should serve two terms. One in office and one in prison.

Stop Repeat Offenders!!! Quit ReElecting Them!!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-29-2012, 10:09 AM
Steve Martin Steve Martin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hayward
Posts: 367
Not Fractional

I am glad Dane posted his clarification. I was reading down thru the posts all the while thinking that Section 31 is not a fractional section, why is everyone calling it fractional? Section 31 does asorbe some of the excess or deficiency along the range line, but is is not fractional even as defined even by the 1973 manual.
__________________
Steve Martin, LS 7264
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:23 PM
Keithwill Keithwill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paso Robles, Calif.
Posts: 159
This section 31 is not fractional and the original distances are either 80 or very close to 80 and would make the 1/16 sec. corners at midpoints.

If you want to subdivide sections according to Robillard/Bouman, you can, but it will not be in conformance with the Manual!

This bogus theory of two subd. of sec. lines needs to be thrown in the trash.

Keith (retired BLM)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:29 PM
Ian Wilson Ian Wilson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 1,174
Keith: I made the fractional point back in Post #6 and got some interesting comments by email.

However, what is this theory of two subd. of sec. lines you mention? I'm not ollowing your abbreviations or numbers.
__________________
Ian Wilson, P.L.S. (CA / NV / CO)
Land Surveying Practice Leader
Cardno, Inc.
701 University Avenue, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825
916.692.3104 (p)
916.923.6251 (f)
916.960.9573 (c)
ian.wilson@cardno.com

www.cardno.com
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:04 PM
Keithwill Keithwill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paso Robles, Calif.
Posts: 159
Ian,

I did read your comments above and agree.

Don't tell us that you don't know about the bogus theory of Robillard/Bouman that there is one and only one section subd. line and that is the mathematical intersection of straight lines between the 1/4 sec. corners and any other existing line by occupation or even "erroneous" survey, are simply "property lines" and NOT the legal subd. of secs. lines.

It is about time that this bogus theory is knocked in the head and thrown in the trash. Read and reread the Rivers case in Florida as it supports this bogus theory and existing interior private survey monuments are simply ignored!


Or, maybe others who happen to believe in this nonsense, can come up with other VALID writings to support it?

Keith

Last edited by Keithwill : 03-17-2012 at 05:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Keithwill Keithwill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paso Robles, Calif.
Posts: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS7773 View Post
I am doing research in a fractional section (31) for a future Parcel Map and the existing Map that was surveyed in 1906 went an even split between the Northwest-Northeast corners and an even split for the Southwest-Southeast corners. I do not have a 1902 manual, but was that correct method? Attached is the Map - Thanks
Looks to me like the section was retraced exactly right and the 1/16 sec. cors. set at midpoint.

Keith

Last edited by Keithwill : 03-17-2012 at 05:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:31 PM
Keithwill Keithwill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paso Robles, Calif.
Posts: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS7773 View Post
Yes, lots were conveyed after this subdivision. My concern is that the Center Quarter Corner per this map is not the Center Quarter Corner of the section. The same with the North Quarter Corner and the South Quarter Corner - yet with other parcels being surveyed by Record of Surveys and Parcel Maps - Other surveyors are calling them the Government Corners. I am requesting the BLM Plat today.
I do not understand this post?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:22 AM
Keithwill Keithwill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paso Robles, Calif.
Posts: 159
Does anybody have this quote available to post here?

"See Clark 7th 10.22 on center of section by County Surveyor before you make your decision."

Quoted from above.

Thanks,

Keith
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.