What is a Site Plan?

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mpallamary
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What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:30 am

I am working with a couple of other surveyors on understanding what a Site Plan is. I have identified several examples and definitions. If there is anyone who has ever prepared a site plan, would you consider sending one to me? If need be redact your name.

What is a site plan and what is it supposed to show? Can anyone prepare one?

Many thanks

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LS_8750
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby LS_8750 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:42 am

2016 CBC.
Chapter 1, Division 1:
Section 107.2.5 - Site plan.

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hellsangle
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby hellsangle » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:52 am

Thanks, Clark!

More particularly:

"[A] 107.2.5 Site plan

The construction documents submitted with the application for permit shall be accompanied by a site plan showing to scale the size and location of new construction and existing structures on the site, distances from lot lines, the established street grades and the proposed finished grades and, as applicable, flood hazard areas, floodways, and design flood elevations; and it shall be drawn in accordance with an accurate boundary line survey. In the case of demolition, the site plan shall show construction to be demolished and the location and size of existing structures and construction that are to remain on the site or plot. The building official is authorized to waive or modify the requirement for a site plan when the application for permit is for alteration or repair or when otherwise warranted.

[A] 107.2.5.1 Design flood elevations

Where design flood elevations are not specified, they shall be established in accordance with Section 1612.3.1."

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:36 pm

Yes, thanks! I just found out they changed the section per 2019 UBC to 107.2.6.

Does anyone know what an "accurate boundary line survey" is and can anyone do one?

Can a plumber or carpenter or electrician prepare an accurate boundary line survey?

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:25 pm

It looks like San Francisco cites a survey map. Anyone have any thoughts?

Also CLSA refers to a site plan and a survey.
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pls5528
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby pls5528 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:26 pm

I have seen a wide variety of so-called "Site Plans" done by, engineers, surveyors, architects, landscape architects and planners. The context vaied widely, but, most showed a boundary and prposed building and setbacks minimally. I have lived in the Lake of the Pines community for a few years now, and the CC&R's require you to prepare a "Site Plan" showing what you propose realtive to a boundary. Some of what I have seen are crude sketches by hand all the way to a more formal boundary/topo overly with the new construction. Keep in mind, the Association who looks at these, for the most part, it is a simple formality, and requirement to pay fees for your application (which goes into their kitty).

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ekparian
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby ekparian » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:43 pm

These guys will give you a site plan anywhere in the USA, 24hr turn around time from $89-$259. The website states they do not stamp their plans. Check it out at the link below.

https://getasiteplan.com/?gclid=CjwKCAj ... KUQAvD_BwE

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby LS_8750 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:53 am

In the larger context, the CBC site plan reference falls under the submittal documents required for a permit. It spells itself out clearly. I've seen many jurisdictions accept plans and issue permits with site plans grotesquely short of the CBC requirement. I've seen the harm it caused in may cases.

That getasiteplan.com is hilarious, or not. They have an 805 area code.

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:54 pm

Rhetorical, I suppose, but no one is making an effort to protect the profession with regards to the site plan company because?

"These guys will give you a site plan anywhere in the USA, 24hr turn around time from $89-$259. The website states they do not stamp their plans. Check it out at the link below.

https://getasiteplan.com/?gclid=CjwKCAj ... KUQAvD_BwE

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ekparian
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby ekparian » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:16 pm

I just found that while simply doing a google search "site plan".
Yeah, that is offensive.
What do you recommend doing?
What laws are they breaking?
I brought it to your post to gain exposure...
I feel this brings down our profession as well.
I don't know how to stop this. I don't have the resources...

From what I gather, they play off of ignorant building departments and planning departments who don't require stamp and signature. There is a note telling the purchaser to check with bldg dept regarding stamp and sig. They prey on ignorant people too who don't read the small print.

If you click on a plan and read further, they even offer to create an encroachment exhibit to submit to the city if you feel your neighbors bldg is encroaching on your property.

I feel we need to continue to educate the cities and counties how this can cause harm.

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ekparian
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby ekparian » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:27 pm

mpallamary wrote:Rhetorical, I suppose, but no one is making an effort to protect the profession with regards to the site plan company because?


Apparently nobody in the entire nation has a problem with this...

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:54 pm

Yes indeed! The entire nation.....

And with each day, the role of the professional land surveyor diminishes. We are becoming extinct.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby Man of Chain » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:27 am

How about one of us surveys a small piece of land with an "encroachment" that would be revealed to not be an encroachment after a diligent survey, say a junior parcel situation. Buy the piece of land, hire getasiteplan.com to create such an exhibit, stir up a whole lot of litigation, then turn around and sue getasiteplan.com. ?
Last edited by Man of Chain on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:32 am

Perhaps they should be turned in. If they are, will anything be done? I do not believe the Board considers a site plan a survey document even if it shows boundary lines.

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mpallamary
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby mpallamary » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:32 am

Perhaps they should be turned in. If they are, will anything be done? I do not believe the Board considers a site plan a survey document even if it shows boundary lines.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby Man of Chain » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:00 pm

The Board considers ties from structures to boundary lines a ROS trigger. Ties like that are the basic point of a site plan. Maybe I should be doing site plans instead of Surveys, Lol.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby LS_8750 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:47 am

So in the 2019 CBC the site plan requirement is in 107.2.6.

Looking at the other side of this:

When the submitted plans include no site plan, or inadequate site plan, and are approved for construction, and a property line or setback encroachment is discovered in the field following permit approval, and construction halts and litigation ensues as a result, and the public is harmed, and the Building Official / Enforcement Agent (2019 CBC Section 202) shrugs it off, what recourse does the public have?

Who keeps an eye on the Building Official / Enforcement Agent?

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hellsangle
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby hellsangle » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:14 am

Well said, Clark!

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LS_8750
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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby LS_8750 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:34 am

Mr. Frame brought up an interesting perspective on another thread recently, "When Does Boundary Surveying Begin?".

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8602

Mr. Frame distinguished a Demo Plan from being under the purview of a PLS. Fair enough.

And when you look at the CBC language for Site Plan above, you will see that a site plan includes existing conditions and new construction. But per CBC the Site Plan needs to be "drawn in accordance with an accurate boundary line survey."

The survey is some sort of underlying document embedded in the Site Plan.

It is not all that common that I see the plat of survey included in the plan set, separate from the "site plan".

So, does a PLS sign and stamp a Site Plan?

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby DWoolley » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:39 am

LS_8750 wrote:
So, does a PLS sign and stamp a Site Plan?


LS_8750:

Yes, Business and Professions Code 8761.

As a City Surveyor, we required a surveyor's signature on the construction plans for boundary. Also required on the construction plans was existing/found monumentation - we walked the site if we suspected there were more monuments. Also required was boundary establishment notes and if triggered, a record of survey. I signed the construction plans as to monument preservation and survey related approvals defined in a certificate.

It was common to have topography and a "record boundary" with the surveyor’s signature and seal absent on construction plans and site plans. Oddly, we had the engineer of record object on occasion to having the surveyor's signature and seal. I believe it was because the engineer either used an unlicensed surveyor or they did not want their subconsultant's name on the plans.

Readers understand a "record boundary" in connection with a field survey is negligence. A record boundary was created - the surveyor's 3 card monte - to save wealthy developers money at the expense of the land surveyor's license. Call to action, if you see a "record boundary", usually with a topo, turn it into BPELSG.

Every site plan, generically, requires a land surveyor's signature and seal, pre-82 notwithstanding.

DWoolley
Last edited by DWoolley on Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby bryanmundia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:34 am

mpallamary wrote:Rhetorical, I suppose, but no one is making an effort to protect the profession with regards to the site plan company because?

"These guys will give you a site plan anywhere in the USA, 24hr turn around time from $89-$259. The website states they do not stamp their plans. Check it out at the link below.

https://getasiteplan.com/?gclid=CjwKCAj ... KUQAvD_BwE


I have began the process of filing a complaint against this company/website. They are knowingly breaking the law (since they state that their plans are not signed). I will let you know how the process progresses with the Board.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby kwilson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:56 pm

We also have the Building Departments to work with. Just about a week ago i called a County Chief Building Official (2 million people live in this County) asking him about a Site Plan drawn by an architect showing the existing boundaries with dimensions, buildings, other improvements and the proposed addition. The "surveying" apparently was done by an unlicensed person since no surveyor's stamp or any reference to a surveyor is shown.

There was a note on the Site Plan that stated the following "Verify Property Lines - Misrepresentation of property lines, right-of-way locations, or setback dimensions may invalidate this permit."

So in speaking with the Building Official, he indicated that they will approve Site Plans where a surveyor has not done the boundary survey unless they feel like knowing where the boundaries are is important, i.e. close to the setback. This particular Site Plan says 8' Side Setback. So does this mean that the Minimum Setback is 8 feet or the proposed setback is 8 feet and the Minimum Setback is not shown. That's always a question i need to call the architect about.

Either way i quoted the CBC reference about "Accurate Boundary Line Survey" and he basically disagreed that it is always needed for a Site Plan. Since the Building Official is not doing the survey work should the complaint go to the architect? Or what responsibility does the Building Official have in accepting this illegal survey.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby kwilson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:28 pm

I sent this email to the Building Official for a major city in California as follows:

To the Chief Building Official in the City of xxxxx California

I am a land surveyor in the City of xxxxx. I do a lot of work in the City of xxxxx. I have some questions about your understanding of CBC A 107.2.6

When a permit for an addition, ADU or tear down/rebuild takes place in your city do you require a Site Plan to be a part of the permit? I am assuming yes.
Do you then require and “Accurate Boundary Line Survey” per CBC A 107.2.6?
Do you require that the “accurate boundary line survey” be performed by an individual that is licensed to provide this land surveying work in accordance with the PLS Act and PE act? (I included copies of these two laws)
According to these laws, only a licensed land surveyor or professional engineer licensed prior to 1982 can provide a boundary line survey.

(I also copied 107.2.6 into the email)

We will see what the response is. Most other cities in this area already require a surveyor to do the survey of the lot in order to get a permit.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby bryanmundia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:34 am

So yesterday I filed three complaints for online companies that offer these "un-official site plans".

As you come upon these companies on-line, please feel free to private message me with the name of the company and I will happily file complaints. There is no room in our profession for unlicensed practice.

Most of these companies are violating 8726(a), 8726(b), 8726(c), 8726(d), 8726(g), 8726(i), 8726(j), 8726(k), 8726(l), 8726(m) in basic practice. I have created a generic summary for the complaint with some fill in information as needed based on the company standards and website information so filing these doesn't take me long at all.

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Re: What is a Site Plan?

Postby Peter Ehlert » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:26 am

bryanmundia wrote:So yesterday I filed three complaints for online companies that offer these "un-official site plans".

As you come upon these companies on-line, please feel free to private message me with the name of the company and I will happily file complaints. There is no room in our profession for unlicensed practice.

Most of these companies are violating 8726(a), 8726(b), 8726(c), 8726(d), 8726(g), 8726(i), 8726(j), 8726(k), 8726(l), 8726(m) in basic practice. I have created a generic summary for the complaint with some fill in information as needed based on the company standards and website information so filing these doesn't take me long at all.

Thanks!
Please report the response you get.

in the past I got none
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